Delirium -A Vampire the Masquerade LARP

The Sabbat have overrun Dallas for too long. The inner circle has chosen you to take backt he city. After you have fought for your right to survive, how will you continue to grow the city?
 
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:33 pm

Am I missing the location of where the negative status is in the Rule book?
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Miller Time

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:36 pm

Nope. Negative status was never really explained, so we had to house rule that part.

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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:40 pm

So if it's able to affect permanent status shouldn't it have to cost permanent status? Isn't like mixing Apple's and oranges. I can see where the Prince would be exempt from this and have the ability to use temporary status. It is of course her city.
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JoelV



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:48 pm

So based on the reading. The negative status does not have any exceptions for court positions. The prince is not allowed to give negative status to anyone that she doesn't double status over. Also it cost nothing for the Prince and Harpy to remove negative status.

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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:50 pm

Ok that sounds valid
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Miller Time

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:52 pm

We can clarify those things Joel. Thank you for pointing that out.

Jeremy - Yes, it costs a tenporary status. Just because someone says that Billy Jo Bob is disrespectful, does not mean that they are no longer well-connected.

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JoelV



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:07 pm

It being a temp status to add a PERMANENT negative status, is askew espically since only 2 people can remove it. Also only the Prince can hand out status to anyone at a cost of a temp status. This rule allows any primogen which would have a minimum of 2 status to give negative status to anyone that is only acknowledge and they don't even have to be in their clan. Seems off to me.

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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:27 pm

I understand the use of negative status. I just think if it is a serious enough to warrant a Permanent Drop then it should be worth one from the person who is trying to apply it. It would make it a serious offence instead of a trivial one that could easily be abused.
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Miller Time

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:22 am

And if it is abused there are counters to that. Vampire is a very cut throat game when you get into the politics and status realm. Honestly I am pretty shocked some characters are still alive after some of the stunts I have seen pulled. Nikki and others who play characters in power have been far nicer than a lot of the other games I have played in the past.

If you are only Acknowledged in a city, then it would be wise not to do something so stupid that someone wants to slap you with a negative status either. Yes in theory a Primogen could really put someone in a bind by giving them a neg status, however in your example it is not stripping them of their Acknowledged, so it isn't a death sentence.

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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:09 am

I just read through the Status Rules in (LotN p216)
Currently within a very specific set of circumstances can the Harpy, Keeper, Scourge , and the Sheriff . Remove or Add Status to an given target.
The Prince, Seneschal, Your Clan Primogen and or Whip can use TEMPORARY STATUS TO EFFECT STATUS. All others have to use a Permanent to effect the Status of a given target.
If the person attempting to modify a target's status , does not hold any of the above stations. The Initiator must Double the status of the Target and use a Permanent Status to Effect the Target in question.
Other than that Temporary Status can be loaned out to another or used in a social challenge.
Status : Acknowledged can only be given/removed by the Prince
Status : Each position has Specific Permanent Status that cannot be removed while in that position.
Status : Positive/ Negative being equal Have a very specific set of Rules that are already covered in the Book.
Example Decker is upset with Serina he has the Ability to give her negative Status. Decker is her Primogen . So In court or in any public forum he would announce that he was giving negative status and the reason why( the Offense should have a level of Credibility & witnesses.) then spend a Temporary Status to effect her Permanent Status.
Now if Decker (nos) was upset at Anya who is a Tory , Decker would have to possess Double Her Status and Use a Permanent Status to effect her status. Announce it in a public forum such as Court and give evidence of the offense in question just like he would have to do for one of his clan.
Except it would Cost a Permanent to effect Anya (Tory) vs a Temporary to effect Serina (Nos)
So, what is proposed would be a change to the Rules of Play on How Negative Status is used.
I completely understand the uses of negative Status, yet to effect someones Permanent Status and only using a Temporary Status is already covered in the Rules of Play
If you are not the Prince or The Seneschal or Fall under the very specific set of circumstances where Status can be effected, then I think that a misunderstanding of the rules has happened and the mechanics of the system are being changed.
The Rules are Clear on each of the instances where Temporary and Permanent Status are to be used.
The section Layout is like reading a dissertation from a Lawyer who moonlights as a used car salesman.
I had to Break it down into sections and Chart out what is what. I hope this is helpful.
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:29 am

I have another example .
Lets Say that  Stitch(nos) did a wonderful Job for The Gangrel Primogen yet her/she doesn't have the the permanent Status needed to Effect Stitches Status.
So, The Gangrel Primogen could go to the Prince or The Seneschal The Nos Primogen or Whip.
One of those could use temporary Status and not have to double Stitches Status to Apply Status. (positive/negative)
Thus Positive use of Roll Play to Get things Done.
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JasonMyrick



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:47 am

Okay so I don't even know where to start. Over the last few months I have tried to find these "Neg Status" rules and of the 12 books not including the clan books I can find no rules just an obscure reference about it.
So on to important things.
#1- on the 12th Clara stated no new rules were being created only a clarification or "How To" and now there are Neg Trait rules. Though I did like the small additions to help explain how the actual status game works.
#2- Why do we even need Neg Status, i say this because the rules already handle this. If you have 5 Status and I follow the rules in the book and strip you of one status you now have 4 status. With the added rules If you have 5 and I give you a Negative, you still end up with 4. So really this is just a redundant system.
#3 It was openly stated that the reason for this post was to help players understand the status system, AWESOME. But normally when there is something that someone does not understand, when they have the book information, you don't go and add another layer of confusing rules on top of it. Again had this just been a primer for status great, but adding more rules for some reason is horrible.
#4 Why in the heck does it only take a Temporary Status to permanently lower a players status this way. This has the same effect at the end of the day as the rules that already exist for removing permanent status. Though there are 2 differences: First now for the like 3 NPC and 1 NPC who actually have enough status to use this they can basically black ball and everyone out of the status game without sacrificing anything, unlike the rules in the book where is they really want to hurt you rep they have to take it on the chin as well. Believe me the reason it was done that way in the core rules is a checks and balance, this completely removes that balancing factor. Second and by far the bigger issue that I am sure has not even been though about, this system will weigh heavily in this. Player 1 has 6 status, while players 2 has 3 status (he was at 5 and pissed of the Prince last month and lost 2 Status); they get into spat in court over something and a social challenge is called and status falls into the mix. Now they each bid 1 Social Trait and then they add their status to the totals, let's say they both has 14 Socials; so it is 20 vs. 17. They throw and someone looses and is down a social trait. Now let's take that same set up, only this time Players 2 received 2 Neg Status from the Prince instead of losing 2 Permanent Status. Same scenario but now since Players 1 paid attention in court when the challenge is called, they call out Players 2's Neg Status. Now Players 2 has to bid 3 Social Traits just to get in the challenge; the numbers are still 20 vs. 17. But when player 2 loose the challenge they loses 3 traits instead of 1. This adds up fast and creates a power vacuum.
Now there are some questions to ask that are not covered and will come up.
#1 So by your rules you have to spend a Temp Status to give a Negative, but what about the Prince who can remove permanent status at a cost of a temporary. It would seem that since you are placing Neg Status at a grade lower, does this mean the Prince can give Neg Status for Free. Because it seems fitting.
#2 In a social challenge where a players attempts to use the status to bolster their traits, the other party can ignore their status (meaning they don't get to add them to their total), sure not a smart move cause reasons. But in this case does that mean if this is done they also cannot call your negative traits against you , since you are already ignoring the status.
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:25 am

As the core rules state only 2 positions the Prince and the Senashal don't have specific criteria that have to be met to use Temporary status to give/ remove status. All others have very specific situations in which status can be given or removed. If someone outside of the positions that have a very specific way of modifying status try to give/remove status then he/she would have to use a Permanent status
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Miller Time

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:00 pm

Sorry guys it was a late night, and I haven't even had coffee yet. I will need to take this stuff back to the group and talk it over.

My understanding is that these rules have been in play since the game first started, so in all honesty I am surprised about this response.

Jeremy if you find the primer format so hard to read you can most certainly volunteer to join the staff and we can ask you to sink your free time into typing up all this stuff. How does that sound? Smile

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JasonMyrick



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:03 pm

Aaron yes there have been like 5 neg status thrown out in the last 2 years. However there have never been rules. Again it adds another level of confusion that does not seem to givr any benifit to the game other than removing part of the Princes power
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:13 pm

The post wasn't difficult to read. It just raised questions that I was looking at in the core rules to see the total dynamics of the system. I broke them down into commodities that were similar. This way I use this information to explain it to someone in layman terms. I have to do this at work . when trying to explain complex piping systems to new installers or to clients. If you need /want assistance with any endeavors I will assist as nessary.
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Katie B



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:22 pm

So... If im understanding correctly, if I previously worked hard to cover up a breach of the masquerade using my resources and earned the status of loyal and then lets say my character says something out of turn or whatever... Id rather get a temp neg impatient status then completely get my loyal status that I earned taken away unless whatever I did was more severe and disproved my loyalty.
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Katie B



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:23 pm

It seems simple to me, its all up to st discretion and its in the house rules. Only certain people can do this blah blah blah. Seems straight forward.
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JoelV



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:25 pm

Ahhh but for them to take away your loyal it would actually cost them a permanent status as well. So it's not likely that you would be stripped of loyal at all.
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Katie B



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:30 pm

Which is why temp neg status is a good thing to have. Imagine you got a temp neg status in the middle of that scene. Use it. Then you can really get into the roleplay of it. Some negative status also can be used to ones advantage if you know how to roleplay it out well.
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:31 pm

Your a bit off there. If a negative status is added it lowers your total. And only very few people can do this using temp status. Most have to use permanent status. The new rules would allow the use of temporary status instead of permanent status. Normally reserved for the Prince and the Senashal. And a few other when specific criteria is met
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Katie B



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:34 pm

Yes it lowers your total, but you can still act it out and play it through. Its only temporary.
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JasonMyrick



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:36 pm

No it is not temporary. Under these newly invented rules those Negative Status traits are permanent
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JeremyH

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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:37 pm

No it's not temporary... It's just being paid for with temporary status. ... Apple's and oranges
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Katie B



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PostSubject: Re: Negative Status?   Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:53 pm

Ok. Well I am officially confused about it then lol
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